Forum posts to 'Getting the most from ithlete'

Re: General Feedback for a Beginner

SteveL — Fri, 18 May 2012 15:42:46 +0000

You mention ithlete can calculate our maximum aerobic heart rate. Where do I find the instructions for that?

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Re: Difference between ithlete and Bioforce?

DShen — Sat, 12 May 2012 18:35:19 +0000

FYI i just got word from Joel Jamieson that he shipped out the first set of his HRV training books!

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Re: Difference between ithlete and Bioforce?

firefighter — Sat, 12 May 2012 17:44:17 +0000

Thanks I am purchasing the ithlete today should be fun.

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Re: Difference between ithlete and Bioforce?

moderator — Sat, 12 May 2012 17:00:17 +0000

You can use both apps with the same equipment & see which you like best !

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Re: Difference between ithlete and Bioforce?

moderator — Sat, 12 May 2012 16:59:40 +0000

Lots of good stuff in this thread. If I can add my 2c worth:
1. When lying down, your parasympathetic nervous system is dominant and the sympathetic switched off (unless you are chronically stressed / overtrained).
2. Sitting and standing both involve some degree of sympathetic activation in order to maintain blood pressure to the brain (important for some people!). This inevitably results in increased heart rate & usually though not always decreased HRV.
3. My opinion is that sitting or standing involve the body having to balance both branches of the nervous system and this makes the HRV measure more sensitive (this is also the principle behind the Rusko and other orthostatic nervous system tests).
4. Deep breathing is therapeutic & if done with a calm mind stimulates the parasympathetic 'rest & recovery' branch of the nervous system. We are partnering with some experts in this field to bring out apps that use HRV just to relax you. hmmm....

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Re: Flu Affect Numbers

moderator — Sat, 12 May 2012 16:44:47 +0000

One way I like to think about HRV is as a 'health barometer'. Goes down when your getting sick & comes up again when you are recovering. This latter observation is pretty useful for colds & mild flu, since although the blocked nose etc can last for two weeks, you're usually over the worst in 3-4 days and an upswing in HRV can be your guide to start training again.
On the other side, I've seen people lose 50 pts off their HRV with swine flu. Training definitely not advised !

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Re: White Line = Blue Or Green?

moderator — Sat, 12 May 2012 16:40:29 +0000

Hi Kai
As explained in the earlier post on this thread, I chose not to use green every time the reading is above baseline, but preferred to reserve green for when the app sees a good recovery day, like for instance on the 8th April, when you went from quite a low reading to well above baseline.
The period between 15-22 April seems to be effective training for you, because although your body became increasingly fatigued, after that date your readings have been much higher and your baseline has moved upwards, indicating an improvement in your aerobic fitness.
Thanks for sharing this data - it's very interesting!

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Re: HRV crash: average 75's to low 50. 3 months since 50's HRV

moderator — Sat, 12 May 2012 16:31:52 +0000

Hi Nathan
How are you doing right now? any update you would like to share?
If the low HRVs persist, I would go and get yourself checked out, just to eliminate any other condition that might be bringing your system down.

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Re: Difference between ithlete and Bioforce?

firefighter — Sat, 12 May 2012 15:18:57 +0000

I am going to purchase either the Ithelte or the BioForce. I am not and endurance athlete, I do CrossFit style workouts which lead me to the 8 weeks out web site. As a 48 yo firefighter in the US my plans are to start incorporating some of the information from the Ultimate MMA Conditioning book. So my question is , Do the devices work the same? If so then I can just download the app for each and compare like some to others apparently have done. That would be great then I would just purchase the book The Ultimate Guide to HRV training when it becomes available.
Thanks for any help
Steve

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Re: Difference between ithlete and Bioforce?

sprintman — Fri, 11 May 2012 04:49:14 +0000

DShen, thanks for you reply. I've been pretty consistent with taking it in the morning, shortly after getting up and have decided to stick with the supine position for now for both the Ithlete and the Bioforce Apps respectively. It's just crazy how much my HRV lowers (and HR goes up) when I do the tests standing; quite a charge on my sympathetic NS I suppose!

I also have been taking the Ithlete measurement first, followed by the Bioforce. Like you said though, maybe the first measurement kind of primes the breath and thus the Parasympathetic NS a bit making the 2nd measurement a little better? Who knows..but it's interesting to fool around with nevertheless!

Keats

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Re: Difference between ithlete and Bioforce?

DShen — Thu, 10 May 2012 04:32:19 +0000

I too have been tracking with both apps. I take an ithlete reading first, then bioforce right after. I have found that in most cases the apps yield numbers very close. Occasionally the apps yield numbers that are very different - who knows why! It could be their algorithm or it could be the fact that I simply had rising anxiety and doing ithlete first meant I started with a bit more patience, which disappeared thru the 2.5 min reading of bioforce right after.

I also have experimented with positions. I find that standing and sitting yield similar numbers for me. However, if I am lying down the numbers can be much different, usually much higher as you describe.

I make this to be because of the fact that lower HRs usually mean higher HRV numbers due to the higher parasympathetic nervous system effect resulting from lower HR (yes geeking on the details of HRV here!). The important thing is that you are consistent from day to day, and not worrying about standing/sitting/lying down within a day. Similarly, you should take the reading at the same time each day, ie. right after getting up in the morning, going to the bathroom, and the taking the reading.

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Re: Difference between ithlete and Bioforce?

sprintman — Wed, 09 May 2012 23:40:49 +0000

I have been using both Apps for a little while to see how similar they are in HRV and HR readings. What's interesting is that my HRV totally crashes down into the 60's when I do the standing Ithlete test. If I at least sit or lay down using the Ithlete the number goes up to the high 70's (my normal baseline) or even 80's. Today when standing my Ithlete HRV was 65.4 with a HR of 70.4 When done a few minutes later lying down I got a score of 85.1 with a HR of 58.5;;BIG DIFFERENCE! Is that normal to have the type of fluctuation from standing to lying. Maybe I should do it standing then but then might never train out of fear of ruining myself with such a low HRV! I did train intensely today and had a pretty good session.

When I use the Bioforce I always take the test lying down as instructed by Joel and typically get mid-high 70's or low 80's on a good day. Occasionally I get down into the 60's but that is usually after a very hard training session the day before (sprinting and lifting).

Have other people found these type of variations from standing to sitting or supine? Have other people messed around with taking both the Ithlete and Bioforce tests at the same time?

Thanks,

Keats Snideman

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Re: Flu Affect Numbers

MountainBikeRider — Wed, 09 May 2012 13:48:54 +0000

I had flu in March and my HRV sank 40 points as my standing heart rate went over 100. iThlete saved me from a Mothers' Day visit

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Re: Flu Affect Numbers

DShen — Sat, 05 May 2012 17:50:05 +0000

i believe i read somewhere that HRV can jump right before you get sick. then of course it crashes because you're sick. so i would say this is matches up with that bit of trivia.

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Flu Affect Numbers

SteveL — Sat, 05 May 2012 16:49:46 +0000

Prior to getting a mild case of the flu my readings were in the 70s. Yesterday with a bad cold and a low grade fever it crashed to 51. Today I feel a bit better and it's up into the 60s. Does the flu account for this?

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Re: White Line = Blue Or Green?

BaarRacer — Wed, 02 May 2012 21:36:40 +0000

Hello,

i think i have the same problems. I don't get a green line since three weeks! At the beginning of measurement there were 2 days with a green line. Since three weeks i have only white or orange lines. Even there was a orange line while the HRV increased!

Here are some screenshots of my values:

There was a big drop between 15 an 25 april. But i felt very good at this time an there was a very tough and good race in this week, too.

What do you think? Do i have a problem with my trainingsplan?

(here some additional facts about me: male, 28 years old, main sport: XCM MTB racing; five trainings days per week, ~12000km per year)

Thanks!

Kind regards.

Kai

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Re: White Line = Blue Or Green?

DShen — Wed, 02 May 2012 16:47:58 +0000

i think your use of white is fine. it was just not explained anywhere since you talked about the other colors. i just wanted to make sure i knew what it meant!

INTERESTING - there is a difference between the colors of the change boxes and the line. that is something that i had not consciously registered before!

is the line's color affected by the colors of these boxes? or how should we, as users, read and interpret those box colors? thanks!

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Re: White Line = Blue Or Green?

moderator — Wed, 02 May 2012 13:55:27 +0000

Hi David
White is normal. Strictly defined as +/- 1 Standard Deviation (SD) from the mean (baseline).
The philosophy behind the app is to alert you to something which is changing more than it would by chance alone.
The significance of amber & red are self evident, but perhaps green takes more explaining. I reserved green as a Daily change for occasions when you have recovered pretty well.
I had been under the weather for a few days with a cold just below the surface, making me feel tired and a bit achy. My scores were low 70s, whereas I am normally just below 80.
Today, I went from a 71 to a 78, and got a green daily change and green line. Although I still had slight sniffles, that told me I was ready to train again, so I went out for a 2hr ride and really enjoyed it, I felt strong and fast.
I'm starting work on updating the Users Guide, and will put much more explanation in the second edition.

Feel free to disagree with the philosophy - I know some people have asked why not just have everything except amber & red as green.

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Re: HRV crash: average 75's to low 50. 3 months since 50's HRV

nathan — Tue, 01 May 2012 10:04:56 +0000

The initial 6 weeks after the crash to 50's I had the classic signs of overtraining, elevated resting heart rate and I found it really hard to get to sleep and maintain unbroken sleep, but now my sleep patterns have become normal, constant 8 hours.

I am not convinced that HRV is so low because I have detrained because my standing resting heart rate (recorded during HRV) is still in the 80's when it used to be sub 60's. I also get 1 random day a week where i'll record a HRV of 70 plus, so I feel like my body is slowly on the mend. Past attempts to increase training have resulted in a drop in HRV, I guess I'm going to just wait it out till at least when my standing resting HR sits below 70 and HRV is 65, then carefully increase my weekly intensity ( TRIMP scores).

Overtraining is a black hole!!

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Re: HRV crash: average 75's to low 50. 3 months since 50's HRV

DShen — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:11:02 +0000

Also you're only running about 12 minutes a day, even if running 7 days a week. That's not a lot of stimulus to your system at all. I am not surprised that you have detrained down to the 50s in HRV. As SteveL mentioned, other factors might also affect HRV like sleep, stress, etc.

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Re: HRV crash: average 75's to low 50. 3 months since 50's HRV

SteveL — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:58:37 +0000

How has your sleep quantity and quality been?

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White Line = Blue Or Green?

DShen — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 15:30:27 +0000

Just to clarify - in ithlete I get a lot of white lines. The included manual and the PDF manual available here don't ever mention white as a line color. Does it equal the green, meaning I can work out normally and/or really push today? Also, I have never seen the blue color line except in the moving average line. Thanks!

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HRV crash: average 75's to low 50. 3 months since 50's HRV

nathan — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 13:32:16 +0000

My HRV readings have dropped from a base of greater that 70 HRV, to a base level of sub 55, this new low level has been the norm for 3 months after a two week crash in my HRV from 82
to 49.

Since I have gradually cut back on exercise to now only running 14 km's a week (2 km's a day) at 6 min/ km pace. Before hand I was clocking 90 plus km's a week for at least the 3 months at around 5 min/ km average pace.

I couldn't show a pic up. But would love to share my data to get a feel for what you guys think.

Thanks

Nathan

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Re: equipment doesn't work Version 2

moderator — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 18:19:27 +0000

Moderator back - with apologies. Just trying to do too many things in parallel at the moment.
Will try to be timely with the comments, but do appreciate everyone weighing in with their experience.

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Re: Equipment doesn't work...

moderator — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 18:16:47 +0000

With apologies for the late reply - please anyone that is having trouble getting started get in touch directly with ithlete.support@myithlete.com so we can get you up & running as soon as possible.

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Re: HRV lower lower lower - supplements the answer?

moderator — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 18:13:13 +0000

I get an immediate improvement from my morning latte!
Although caffeine is thought of as a 'fight or flight' type stimulant, research by Japanese found that moderate doses (240mg) produced a marked increase in parasympathetic HRV for about 90mins, starting about 10mins after ingestion. They did not look at larger doses, and I think its possible the effect reverses at some point though.
Bear in mind though that anything that makes you feel good is also likely to improve your HRV at least temporarily, since mood originates in the same part of the brainstem that the heart control (ANS) parasympathetic nerves do.
Do I get today's 'HRV trivia' award?

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Re: Very High Readings Even a Couple 100's Plus

moderator — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 18:07:06 +0000

Good discussion guys.
It is indeed possible to have numbers over 100, and the highest that has been reported to me is 112 in the case of an Australian professional athlete.
Research studies have often shown correlation between HRV and VO2 max, but aerobic capacity is by no means the whole story. Genetics, age, weight, diet, lifestyle and even breathing technique all contribute to HRV.
That's why ithlete places so much emphasis on changes compared to your own baseline - that's what really matters.
But if all other things are kept equal, if your training leads to an upwards trend in your HRV, it is quite likely that your aerobic capacity is also improving. VO2 max is largely genetically determined but eg maximum speed or power at lactate threshold would be good measures to test this out, and a great study by Dr Martin Buchheit found that in a running club ONLY those athletes whose HRV improved during their training program also improved their 10K running times.
Powerful stuff!

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Re: Peaking for races or events with HRV as a guide?

moderator — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 17:56:25 +0000

Thanks Mark
Please be sure to let us know how you get on in the IM
Good luck from the ithlete Team

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Re: Difference between ithlete and Bioforce?

moderator — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 17:53:58 +0000

ithlete is the world's first simple, convenient daily measure of HRV to be brought to the iPhone and Android devices. It uses a patented measurement technique and paced breathing in order to get good reliability from a short 1 minute measure, and is designed to be used in the standing or sitting positions. The standing position is especially important for well trained endurance athletes, whose resting heart rates can be significantly below 60 beats per minute.

The BioForce app has been designed as a customization of ithlete for Joel Jamieson of 8weeksout.com to leverage his experience of more than a decade training martial arts athletes using the high end Omegawave HRV system. The measurement protocol of this system requires the user to lie or sit still for two and a half minutes and does not require paced breathing. The BioForce app is intended to be used in conjunction with Joel's book on training with HRV, and forthcoming services in the next year.

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Re: How closely does the resulting HRV number correlate to HR?

moderator — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 17:51:54 +0000

Good, $64K kind of question. I believe the answer is 'yes' and in fact some Australian researchers developed a formula where they aimed to maximise the product of daily HRV and 3-day TRIMP. The study was just based on a single athlete unfortunately, so we don't know if it's generally applicable. BUT it fits with what a lot of coaches recommend for tapering, which is a big reduction in volume to allow adaptation (HRV rises) whilst maintaining some intensive race pace sesssions. These keep the adrenal system working, preparing the body for 'fight or flight' and preventing the athlete from becoming sluggish from complete rest.
Would be interesting to hear anyone else's thoughts & experience here!

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