Forum posts to 'Training tips'

Re: Questions regarding time of measurments

moderator — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:37:24 +0000

Hi Garf
Interesting feedback - thanks for that. Especially your finding that when getting up very early, you need to wake up artificially before getting a representative reading. This is likely due to the absence of the usual cortisol awakening response brought about by the combination of daylight and the body's natural (circadian) rhythm.
I'm not surprised about your night shift findings - I used to do sets of 12hr night shifts years ago, and never seemed to have a normal energy level the following day.

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Re: Questions regarding time of measurments

garf — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:44:55 +0000

Just thought I would feedback my findings from taking the reading on my early shift ie readings at about 4.30am, & night shift so taking the readings when I wake at about 1pm.

Regarding the early shift I found it best to dress & go downstairs, I think this gets the body into wake up mode & I don't have to worry about disturbing the wife! I found the readings around the same as the normal hours & fluctuated as expected due to training. Before doing this I found the readings fluctuated quite a bit (not due to training).
The readings after a night shift fluctuate more. I think this depends on hard or easy the shift was & how well I slept afterwards. However these are less important to me anyway as I only train lightly or for short periods if on nights.

Hope this info helps anyone on the same type of work pattern. Any input would be appreciated.

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Re: SST versus traditional base. Ithlete variations

moderator — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:12:54 +0000

Hi Kenny
I've not specifically practised SST myself, but from this digest www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspottraining.html it seems to me that SST is at a considerably higher intensity level (~85% FTP) than traditional base training, and is normally practised after the winter base miles have been accumulated. Considering this, I would indeed expect HRV readings to be lower than those from base miles, since the training impulse (or TSS) will be considerably higher per hour, therefore necessitating a greater recovery time.
The best test as to which method develops aerobic capacity to the max (which both are aiming to do) would be to run a parallel test with a friend who has similar ability and similar HRV levels. After 2mths, compare the change (increase) in HRV between the two and see if there is a clear winner!

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SST versus traditional base. Ithlete variations

Kennyw77 — Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:54:46 +0000

Hello all. Has anyone done any great amount of Sweet Spot Training as oppose to traditional winter base training on the bike?
I have just started my lengthy periodised winter bouts (I never raced this year so I have no recovery from taxing period) and done mainly traditional last 3 weeks. I have however done a few SST hour and hour plus sessions. I was expecting if the theory is correct to see similair results with regards to recovery HRV figures. If this isn't the case then I'd say the theory is flawed as adaptations are taking place which do not enable training everyday.
So far I have been getting steady 90-93 (normal for me after low effort) after my 4 hour base days but woke both mornings of SST to 78-80. I do know however that this is a little bit of an unfair test as I do SST in the evening and base in the midday: SST is pretty much forced on me if I have a work day which means I can't get out.
Simon: would this be the main reason for the drop?
Does anyone have any long term HRV figures which prove the validity of SST training. I'm a little sceptical to thinking it is no more than a forced alternative in tight days. And that the likes of Contador does 45 hours of base a week for a reason.

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Re: Questions regarding time of measurments

moderator — Sun, 02 Oct 2011 17:57:00 +0000

Hi Garf

Those are very good questions, which I will try to answer:

1. Good observation - this has to do with circadian rhythms, and in particular the release of cortisol, the stress hormone that wakes you up when it gets light. This increases blood pressure and lowers HRV - one of the main reasons that 6-10am is the high risk time for heart attacks & strokes.
The important thing about using ithlete is that by taking the measurement at the same time every day, you see the changes compared to the baseline, which is the average of your previous readings at that time of day. So taking it later in the day and declaring yourself fit would be cheating, unless you had some previous measurements from that later time of day with which to compare.

2. If this is a medium to long term change rather than eg a 2wk shift pattern, then I would recommend taking your reading at the new wake time. You may find it's actually higher at first, for the reason outlined above - ie your body clock is still set to rest & recover (sleep) state rather than get up & go mode. The ithlete baseline will adjust within a week to the new levels.

Glad you are finding ithlete interesting & please let us know how things change to the new day pattern.

Simon

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Questions regarding time of measurments

garf — Fri, 30 Sep 2011 12:49:56 +0000

I am new to using the Ithlete HRV monitor & find it very interesting, & have a few questions.
1. I have noticed is that I can often get a higher (better) reading later in the day. Does this mean that I could train that day?
2. I am about to start a job where I have to get up very early (4.30am). Should I still take the reading on waking or leave it until the time I would normally measure (around 8.00am).

Thanks in advance Simon.

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Re: ithlete and periodisation

moderator — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:35:09 +0000

Hi Mick

Thanks for the feedback, and I totally agree with you! 3 days in a row of aerobic training for me and I never felt better!

I think a lot of people are put off by the 'no pain no gain' mantra so they think it can't be doing them any good. To make things worse, Maffetone aerobic training feels really easy at first, and, contrary to many things in life, it gets harder as you continue. That's because your heart stroke volume increases and you get more work done per beat, so 140 bpm becomes capable of delivering a lot of blood, oxygen & nutrients around your body.

Sorry to hear about the HRM app crashing - it should not, especially if you are using the latest 1.15 version. I recommend starting your music first on the ipod touch 2G, since it does not support background tasks, then fire up the HRM app and press the top sleep button to switch off the display when you want to save power. I just checked the Apple developer portal, and there are too few crash reports for them to notify. But if it happens consistently, could you please let me know the sequence of events in an email to ithlete.support@myithlete.com?
I want to make this a great tool for all users!

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Re: ithlete and periodisation

Mick — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 09:02:39 +0000

Reporting back - very pleased! The Maffetone aerobic training is making a big difference to my ultra prep. Back running once, even twice a day, and loving it. Occasionally overdoing it but the HRV picks it up straightaway. The combination of the HRV monitoring and easy aerobic base-building is a breath of fresh air for my training; all that scientific research is much appreciated! And after 3 months of this MAF work I'll see if the cramps have been licked, on a 100km'er.
PS Couldn't get the HRM app to work properly with my ipod touch v2 though, so got a Polar HRM. Seems to crash out when the music is playing and doesn't record any data. Tried without music on but still a problem.

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Re: ithlete and periodisation

Mick — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:35:34 +0000

Awesome, thanks Simon!

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Re: ithlete and periodisation

moderator — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:21:12 +0000

Hi Mick

That's great feedback - thank you so much also for writing a review.

To try & answer your points:

1. You can take a screenshot of any app at any time just by holding down the Lock button on the top and the Home button simultaneously. You will see the screen flash white and the image is added to your device's photo library, from where it can be emailed or synced with your PC or Mac.

2. To add extra information and make notes, use the export feature on the Edit screen (I assume you are on v1.2 of the app) to send a .csv file to yourself. The date & time of each entry will appear as columns when you open the file with Excel, Numbers, etc, as well as the HRV, HR and the training recommendation letter. I recently did an FAQ on what these mean http://www.myithlete.com/how-do-i-use-the-export-file/. You can just add as many extra columns as you need - for instance I use one for TRIMP (training load expressed as duration x intensity), and one for how I feel overall as well as a couple of notes on the actual training I did.

I hope you find a solution for the cramps, and when you do, please be sure to post back.

Very glad you are finding ithlete useful!

Simon.

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Re: ithlete and periodisation

Mick — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 10:39:53 +0000

I'm getting interesting trends which I'd like to show - how do you grab the screenshot from the iPod /iPhone to display the graphs? Or is that an upcoming feature? I'd also like to be able to input into each days measurement a training note eg hills/intervals/race/longrun plus time etc so I can see the correlation without having to compare dates from Attackpoint.org (our online orienteering training log). It wouldn't matter if this was a mac/pc application to show the graphs and training; even now after only 3 weeks I see fabtastic data in teher and after a few years it will be mind boggingly useful! Especially with training summary attached!

I've also just written a review for NZ Orienteering magazine as I'm impressed by the app and hardware.

The big problem I have is not with cardiovascular fitness but with cramps and muscle tightness, after long long runs (I've done a few ultras but the cramps have put a stop to them). The HRV definitely plunges after the long long runs and is very useful to show when I've recovered. I would dearly love to be able to run ultras again so I will have to find ways to train for them and will try fast hiking perhaps and see how that works with HRV and multi-days.

Thanks for a great system.

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Re: HRV Drop After Training

moderator — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 21:50:25 +0000

Standing heart rates are typically 10-15 bpm higher when standing than lying down, so you would expect a competitive endurance athlete with high VO2 max to have a standing HR in the range 45 - 60.

Research (Sandercock et al 2008) has shown evidence of parasympathetic HRV (this is what ithlete measures) saturating below 45 bpm, so we want to use a position for the test well clear of this, and preferably higher than 50.

Sitting HR is often 5-10 bpm higher than lying down. It may be easier for an athlete to relax sitting down, and if their normal HR in this position is ~55 bpm or higher, then it is OK to do the test sitting if they feel more comfortable. Greater comfort & relaxation during the test will translate into better consistency and sensitivity to a developing nervous system imbalance.

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Re: HRV Drop After Training

Orishas — Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:09:35 +0000

What would you consider a good standing morning heart rate. And if some is above this would you always recomend that they sit for the test?

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Re: HRV Drop After Training

moderator — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:59:31 +0000

Hi Sparky

Think we may have crossed messages - just replied to the email you sent with your data (thanks for that).

First thing I see is that your heart rate in your morning readings is quite high and variable. HRV is a more sensitive measure than HR, so we need to get the HR more stable before HRV can act as a good barometer of fatigue & recovery.

Since your standing HR is quite high (~90), you should be fine to do the morning readings sitting rather than standing.
I suggest that you do that from now on, and try to find a peaceful moment to do the test - you need to be relaxed when doing the measure for the underlying state of the nervous system to show through.

If you want to let me have your data again in a week's time I will be happy to take another look, particularly in conjunction with your daily training regime.

In the meantime, and until HRV is working well for you, I think you are wise to ramp up training gently.

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Re: HRV Drop After Training

Sparky1783 — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:23:11 +0000

Dear Moderator,

I just emailed my data to ithlete.support@myithlete.com, so you would have it to look over.

Unfortunately, I just typd a long lengthy very detailed response for you, and it was accidently deleted, so here is a shorter response. I get an average of 7-8.5 hours of sleep per night with my bedtime ranging between 10-11pm and I wake between 6:15-7:15 am 6-7 days a week. 2-3 days a week I get an hour long nap in the afternoon as well.

Nutritionally, I eat 3 regular meals and 2-3 snacks. Breakfast is typically along the lines of 3-5 whole eggs, 2 pieces of sprouted wheat bread, turkey sausage or bacon, water, and organic green tea. Common snacks are greek yogurt with fruit and nuts, or string cheese with fruit or nuts. Lunch can range from a sandwich, to soup, to mexican food. Dinner is usually light on carbs, usually turkey or chicken and veggies of some nature. Sweets are limited, but I do have them a few times a week.

I am in the very beginning of training for multisport racing. workouts range from an hour long total body lift in the morning and 30-45 minutes of cardio, either running, rowing, biking, or jumping rope in the evening or some combination of them to a speed workout on the track, to 20 mins of intense cardio. I do feel as though the intensity of the workouts could be harder, I just don't want to go too hard too soon and end up injured. I am a former collegiate track adn field athlete.

I hope this information will be helpful, please let me know if you need more.

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Re: HRV Drop After Training

moderator — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:25:42 +0000

Hi Sparky

It could indeed be that your training and recovery are in good balance. Can you share more details with us, such as what level your blue line is at, how heavy you consider your training program to be, and whether you are eating & sleeping normally?

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HRV Drop After Training

Sparky1783 — Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:08:28 +0000

My current training program, my HRV is not dropping after my training, and my blue line is stable, does this mean I am not training hard enough or that my body is just recovering appropriately?

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Re: Sprinting and Weight Lifting?

moderator — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 18:27:27 +0000

Hi Matt

That sounds like a great performance, especially so soon after reconstructive surgery!

Thanks for the feedback about ithlete's usefulness in power sports, and I hope it continues to play a role in keeping you injury free. Let us know what goodies you would like to see!

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Re: Sprinting and Weight Lifting?

Matt — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:49:06 +0000

I just wanted to post a follow up on ithlete and weightlifting. This past weekend I competed in a powerlifting meet. This was my first meet since having an ACL reconstruction. I used ithlete and TRAC to help guide my training/overtraining for the majority of my prep. The result was I got a squat that was only 50lbs off my best, this was 8 months post knee surgery and also at a bodyweight 25lbs lighter. I hit a 29lb personal best in bench press, and a 77lb personal best in deadlift at 600lbs. I think the ithlete is a very valuable tool in figuring out when to deload or take a break altogether, from a powerlifting perspective.

Thanks for a great product. Looking forward to future releases with even more goodies in them. ;-)

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Re: Sprinting and Weight Lifting?

Matt — Sat, 10 Jul 2010 03:18:32 +0000

I use the ithlete in conjuction with the TRAC program from Mike Tuchscherer to help guide my training for powerlifting. I had been on the fence for a short while till I saw a post by Landon on EliteFTS praising the app. So far I really like it, I feel like it is helping me to keep myself in check and healthy while still getting stronger. I would be very interested to see the e book with Landon and that would be really awesome if you can get Lyle's input as well.

Thanks
Matt

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Re: Sprinting and Weight Lifting?

sashen — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 06:44:20 +0000

Thanks for the pointers. Looking forward to that ebook.

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Re: Sprinting and Weight Lifting?

moderator — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 11:23:32 +0000

Hi Sashen
I don't have direct experience with track athletics, but the overload principles are the same as with all forms of training.
When you train hard, you stress your body, breaking it down somewhat. This training stress is reflected via the autonomic nervous system as reduced HRV, and a lower ithlete daily HRV reading.
The harder, more intensely you workout, the bigger the dip in HRV. During recovery, your HRV increases again, and often supercompensation takes you past your starting point to a new higher level.

As said, I'm not an expert on sprint training, but found an interesting thread discussing HRV for strength & conditioning on www.8weeksout.com, in particular a quote from Lyle McDonald who has written extensively on overreaching & overtraining at www.bodyrecomposition.com :

"A friend of mine (Sprint Coach in Canadia) has used HRV to track some of his athletes. HE found that at the beginning of a 10 day taper, HRV was depressed. After the taper, HRV has returned to normal and his athletes ran PR's. So it's fairly sensitive. He's also seen HRV crater right before an athlete came down being sick."

Another coach familiar with HRV for strength & power is Landon Evans, who also contributed to the 8weeksout thread.

I'm in the late stages of preparing a downloadable free booklet on training with HRV that features an interview with Landon & other well respected coaches. I'll post a note when its ready, hopefully 2-3 wks.

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Sprinting and Weight Lifting?

sashen — Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:04:22 +0000

Do you have any experience with the ithlete and sprinters and/or weight lifters? (and, as a sprinter, I do a lot of weight lifting.)

There are some lifters, notably Pete Sisco, who recommend very high intensity work (by doing, essentially, 5-10 second weighted isometric holds at the end of your range of motion for compound exercises) and then having long rest periods waiting for the body to supercompensate.

And as a Masters (48) sprinter, every speed workout is intense.

So, timing my lifting and running and recovery is a big deal.

Your thoughts/experience?

Thanks.

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ithlete and periodisation

moderator — Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:00:47 +0000

We've all been told over the years that periodisation is an important part of training for endurance sports, and necessary to maximise your performance in the competitive season. The trouble is that it requires discipline, and sometimes just a blind belief that a particular training plan downloaded from the web, or given out by a coach will have the desired effect. In particular, we are supposed to do many weeks of aerobic base building at speeds far lower than those we hope to achieve during the summer events, before being allowed to ramp up the pace. During this phase there's not much feedback that the medicine is working, unless you do tests such as the MAF (Dr Phil Maffetone's site) test on a regular basis.
One of my aims when designing ithlete was to help users (including myself!) see whether training is having the desired effect, and it now looks like the evidence is coming together. At the beginning of this year, a paper was published in the European Journal of Applied Physiology that used the same standard HRV measure as ithlete to track the progress of runners preparing for 10K events. The runners worked to a training program tailored to their own heart rate zones, and in all the runners whose 10k times improved, resting HRV showed a progressively increasing trend during the 8wk training period. The conclusion from this is that if your HRV trend (the thick blue line on the chart) is steadily upwards, then the aerobic component of your fitness is most likely increasing!
How big a change can you expect? by way of example, I have been doing 70%+ of my training below my aerobic threshold for the past 3 mths, and I think the attached screenshot speaks for itself.
A gain of 5-6 units is quite noticeable, not only on the chart, but on my level of comfort when doing longer runs & rides. I can also train every day now without feeling fatigued, which I never could before. Of course there is still the need to increase intensity and do intervals, etc in order to condition the anaerobic component of fitness and be ready for competitive events, but I will not start that until the improvements in base aerobic fitness have stopped coming.

If anyone else who has been using ithlete for a while has had similar experiences, please share them!

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Re: oregon heart rate belt

moderator — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:36:31 +0000

Thanks Tom!

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oregon heart rate belt

anotherbadname — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:00:55 +0000

just an addition to the list. the Oregon scientific heart rate belt works just fine.

Tom.

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Re: Long distance running

moderator — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:56:55 +0000

Hi Cabbey. Great post & question!
If I understand Hadd's method correctly, he advocates high weekly mileages, of which the majority is at heart rate <80% HR max, just below first ventilatory threshold (similar to the MAF (Dr Phil Maffetone) 180 formula). If done strictly, these days should cause little cumulative fatigue, and very few Amber traffic lights from the ithlete morning test.
On race day morning, you will naturally feel a heightened sense of anticipation & excitement, causing your resting HR to raise with adrenalin. In my own experience this does not cause a lowering of HRV enough to get an amber from the ithlete test, but I would like to hear others experience following this thread.

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Re: Long distance running

Cabbey — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 09:17:16 +0000

I've just ordered this product, and looking forward to trying it out. I currently train by HR (Hadds method), so this app will really help. Your comments are very interesting, but can I ask how will the stress of an up and coming race affect the readings. I tend to not take a morning pulse reading on race days as it is always higher due to the anticipation. Thanks

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Re: Has ithlete Changed Your Training?

moderator — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:44:28 +0000

Hi Andy, All,

Whether or not you need to stand up for the morning measurement depends on your resting HR. If your resting HR is normally above 50 whilst lying down then its OK to do the measurement lying down. If it's low 50s or below, then I would really recommend at least sitting if not standing (heck, we're athletes after all!)

Reason for this is that HRV research studies have found that the amount of HRV saturates and distorts the measurement when lying down in people with very low resting HR (45 and under). Standing (or even sitting) will raise this by a few bpm because your heart has to work a little more to pump blood uphill.

Most important is that once you decide on a position that you find comfortable and relaxing, you do the measurement in the same position and pretty much the same time every day. That will maximise the sensitivity of ithlete to the changes caused by training, recovery, yes and late nights Mark!

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Re: Has ithlete Changed Your Training?

aibbott — Wed, 03 Feb 2010 11:35:45 +0000

Hi All,

I have been using mine now for 2 weeks and what a difference! The biggest issue I have had is changing my routine to match what my body says. In the past it has always been. Mon, Run, Tues Swim, Wed, Weights, Thursday Push ups etc, Friday Long run, Sat Cycle.

No More but I am finding the difference a little strange.

However, I can see that late nights are not so cool!

Finally, I have done all my measurements early morning whilst lying in bed. I see on another thread that I really should stand up. Would sitting up be ok?

Andy
P.S. Bloody excellent product and much easier to use than some of the VERY EXPENSIVE HRMs on the market that do the same job.

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